The end result is obvious...
Vallejo Votes For Bankruptcy
The city faces a $16 million deficit in the 2008-2009 budget starting July 1 and unsuccessfully negotiated with its police, firefighter and electrical workers unions for contract concessions through 2012. Public safety salaries comprise 74 percent of the city's general fund budget.
John Riley, president of the International Association of Firefighters, said he is disappointed by the 7-0 vote to file bankruptcy. "I think it was premature. I don't think they exhausted all their options," Riley said. The council and several speakers said the city simply will have no money on July 1 and cannot tell its employees to come to work because there is no money to pay them.
The City allowed the pension plans and salaries of specifically the Fire Fighters to destroy their entire economy.
Roanoke Firefighters have made their opinions clear concerning the proposed budget but I thought there was a reason we have a position with the title 'Fire-EMS Department Chief'. Roanoke City Council asked Department Chief David Hoback for recommendations concerning budget cuts for Fire-EMS. He gave Council his recommendations.
Six Firefighter jobs should be eliminated.
And of course say hello to The Firefighters Union...
They reject this idea saying the public will suffer with fewer Fire Fighters.
I can't speak on the mathematical correlation between total number of citizens, density of living space, placement of Fire Stations, necessary equipment and personnel to secure and safely protect a city of Roanoke's dimensions but I bet I know someone who does.
I would ask The Department Chief.
Oh... that's right. Roanoke did ask the Department Chief and he gave his answer. So the one person you would ask says eliminate six non-administrative positions, the Roanoke Fire Fighter Union shows their displeasure in the concept, and our leaders listen.
Nope... Sorry... When City Council votes in agreement to Mr. Hoback's leadership then they will be listening. Does anyone really think that a man sworn to protect the public would place the paycheck of a desk job worker before the overall public safety?
Update: I guess Fire-EMS Department Chief David Hoback's recommendations were valid. Roanoke City Council voted to accept the advice of a leader.
27 comments:
I could not disagree with you more. Obviously you did your homework on Vallejo (which I am familiar with).
However, your comparison of us and them is really no comparison at all.
Them - $16 million deficit
Us - $8 million increase in revenue this year.
Them - 1500 more calls since 2000
Us - 20% increase in calls since 2001
Them - Starting salary is $70,000
Us - Starting salary is $32,412
Your post disgusts me. By saying that the Fire Chief must be right you must also think that anyone hired for any job is right about everything. What the hell kind of logic is that?
You should talk to the Fire Chief. You may not get a straight answer, but you wouldn't be the first.
Yes, we have a Strong Union. We aren't asking for a bigger raise, we aren't asking for more firefighters, we are simply asking to keep the ones we have. Our lives and the lives of our citizens depend on it. We have been stretched thin and we see more change down the line which will spread us thinner.
When you leave for work in the morning and kiss your wife and kids goodbye do you ever think that it might be the last time you get to do it. Well I do...everymorning. It leaves a lump in your throat...every morning.
If you can't stomach the thought of Roanoke Firefighters balking at a $400,000 budget cut maybe you should stomach that lump in your throat...every day you leave for work.
Maybe if 250+ Firefighters think that the proposal is wrong then it is wrong.
Walk in our boots just once.
I quote:
"Does anyone really think that a man sworn to protect the public would place the paycheck of a desk job worker before the overall public safety?"
Are you really that naive?
The answer is YES. I do believe that someone sworn...
Look up the word corrupt.
Before you fly off the handle, my point is not that our Chief is corrupt, rather to prove you wrong in your statement. Let me guess. You think everyone is really good at heart.
I can't speak on the mathematical correlation between total number of citizens, density of living space, placement of Fire Stations, necessary equipment and personnel to secure and safely protect a city of Roanoke's dimensions....
If you had gone to the city council meeting on the 6th maybe you would be a little more educated on this topicy.
Do you remember the fire in Charleston a couple years back? One of the major recommendations post fire was 4 man trucks. Roanoke Fire-EMS hardly ever has 4 men per truck. We're already at a disadvantage. I guess its easy to armchair quarterback. But trust us, no one is getting rich of this job. This isn't CA and we aren't 75% of the city's budget. All we want is to be safe and for the citizens we protect to be afforded the safety the expect from us.
Well muse you say on your blog that you love you wife and four year old son. How would you feel if you lost one or both in a fire because of the cuts made to the fire dept. I will say that the men and women of Roanoke Fire/EMS will do anything that they can to stop something like that from ever happening. What you don't seem to understand is that the more trucks and men they cut the longer it takes us to get to you. I know the chief says it will not change response times but what he dosen't say is that the 1st truck may be there in time but the 2nd and 3rd will take longer. The biggest thing is if we have two or more fire calls at the same time. Then you may have a truck from the county or salem. If something ever happened to your family who would you want answers from the city government or the city fire dept. Like firefleitz said you go to work and come back home. You never ask what if I never see my family again. Maybe if you knew anything about firefighting you could understand. And just to let you know something about our chief. Yes he is the fire/ems chief but that is on paper. What I mean is yes he has had a lot of classes about fire but he has not been in to many. I don't know the number but he has spent most of his career on a Medic truck or in an office. The men and women that do the job day in and day out know what it takes to do the job.
Your an idiot!! Did Darlene tell you to say all of this crap. You obviously have no clue about the job we do day in and day out, we put our lives on the line doing something that we love. as for Mr. Hoback, he has never fought a fire in Roanoke City...EVER.. he started out as a Secretary for the Emergency Manager, has never ridden a fire truck in the city as a Firefighter, so you think he knows best what we need. The second in command is also an idiot, and the third in command has never fought fire in the city either..They don't have a clue what we do or how we do it. They are in the pockets of city administration stroking them. So
I would suggest you get educated before flying off with that mouth of yours
Listen to Hoback. He is just a puppet of Grisby and is chief in title only. He has very little fire experience and did not come up thru the ranks. Very few respect him. A few years ago he commanded a fire on Patterson and nearly burnt down the whole block. Several years ago he applied to the fire dept. but could not pass the agility tests, and couldn't get hired so he mergered into the dept. coursety of EMS and he used to be a seceraty in the city. So do your homework on what a Fire Chief really is.
I could not agree more with Firefleitz. You obviously live in a perfect world with your perfect people for every job. In this La,La land you live in does anyone ever die of a heart attack or wreck their vehicle and lose a leg. You have no grasp of reality when it comes down to doing a firefighters job and until the fuzzy bunny's die or the cloud you live on crash's to the groud, you wont understand. The comparison you gave is by far the right one, to our situation. The numbers show your completely a fool. The fire chief is a hire by counsel position, do you really think that they dont give agendas to these positions of power. Our UNION is strong, im damn proud of that, There is still such a thing as Right and Wrong. The cuts are wrong, and you know it. Riddle me this, Why does the city have money to give to the art museum and others that are turing downtown square footage into apartments for people to live? Is that Eco development? NO. I know for a fact that these property owners are getting tax cuts for years plus the money the city gave them to start the project. So you do the math. New jobs no, lower taxes coming in for large buildings downtown, Yes. You need to do some homework of your own and see just how the city is throwing its money away at little things. Or get your fuzzy bunny's to start a union and fight for better ways to express yourself on the Blog. FOOL.
T.G
Since you seem to know everything. I guess you already know for sure that your house will not be one that will burn because we can't put it out with a medic truck!
You should do some homework on our great Fire Chief though, and that he came from EMS straight into the desk job and has never fought one fire! Thats right NONE! He's just doing all he know's EMS.
You are just like most others in the city, where just a pain untill you need us.
I see you have lived in Roanoke you entire life, I would hope that you don't live in the northwest section of the city. Within the past several years this section has had to take the brunt of the public safety cutbacks, and is scheduled to take more in the coming months. Engine 13 has already been assigned the task of responding to back up Salem AND Roanoke County, now this engine will be out of service, big subdivisions like North Lakes and Montclair in the county will also be at risk!
The people that live in the Peters Creek rd. area should be very concerned about this loss, quite simply, it takes people to get the job done.
The problem isn't how fast the first truck will be able to get to the fire, you see, it's the second truck that really matters, because (once again) its the people- NOT the truck that puts out fires. Use any location you want in the Peters Creek area, if there is a fire the Quint from 13 will arrive (with 3 people) in about the same amount time. To provide enough people to safely fight the fire, they will have to wait for the second truck. With Engine 13 being taken out of service, the next engine will either be Engine 10 at the airport (which will be moved further away onto Williamson Rd. by the end of the year) Engine 12...but wait, they have already cut that truck from the turnpike... Engine 4 from the very end of Peters Creek Rd. or maybe Engine 9 all the way from 24th street (of course... the plan is to move Engine 9 further away very soon!)
Its pretty obvious.... If you live in the annexed secion of Roanoke City and you have an emergency where SECONDS count for the safety of your family or friends, the absolute best we can provide due to these cuts is
minutes.
Thanks Everyone...
Disagreement is understandable.
My respect for Roanoke City Firefighters is easily being passed on to my son. I would think almost every one of you have seen my wife and my son Vedant visiting a Fire Station. You would probably remember a cute little Indian boy. It is part of a weekly ritual. Every Fire Station has been visited numerous times. That is me defending "Anonymous" personal attacks.
Now you can pick apart my opinions on the 2008-2009 Roanoke City Budget all you want...
So this is an argument over money (budget) and the 'unqualified opinion' of me and Fire-EMS Department Chief David Hoback. I wasn't telling City Council my recommendations so Mr. Hoback is the real focus.
Since I am always eager to learn: Why would Mr. Hoback put desk jobs over the guys who save us?
"Since I am always eager to learn: Why would Mr. Hoback put desk jobs over the guys who save us?"
Simple answer?
The "Buddy" system
"...Since I am always eager to learn: Why would Mr. Hoback put desk jobs over the guys who save us?"
Quite simply, it is because as you have said elsewhere on your blog, "people are selfish". It is in theChief’s best interest to do what his bosses tell him. Even though he does not think this plan is a good idea, he can best provide for his family by keeping his job secure.
If you knew more about the individuals giving him his orders, you would probably be more skeptical of his motives and explanations. He is glossing over the seriousness of the issue by discussing only one area (the time for the first truck to arrive) of a complex system .
It has been over 20 years since we had a line of duty death in Roanoke. So the pencil pushers are willing to take "calculated risk". But when the "stakes" they are playing with is YOUR life, you view it differently.
Firefighters know that Roanoke has already chosen to ignore the NFPA standard for staffing, now they want to stretch us even thinner. It is only 2 positions a day if you spin it right, but really it is an entire engine crew, plus some this time. And this is just another in a series of cuts and reallocation of firefighting personnel We firefighters are the ones with the most to lose and for us the stakes are very high.
The citizens of South Roanoke stand to gain even better EMS coverage and the cuts are on the far corners of the city from them. So I'm not surprised that you support this proposal, as you have said, “people are selfish!”
MuseIce,
The only reason why you are taking the comments personally is because we took your post personally. Why were you so quick to side with Hoback and Burcham?
The truth is that Roanoke City Council has agreed to the budget and clearly placed the responsibility on Chief Hoback. That is plain as day. My question is why would he place himself in that situation. The answer is because Burcham/Grigsby pull the strings and he might have been forced to. But they won't have to answer to anything. They will place the blame on him. That is the way it has gone on for a long time. I cannot understand why he would put himself in that place.
But who the hell am I? I am only one of the 250+ who balked at the idea, took the time to speak out and have our voice heard, put a detailed 41 page report together to prove our points, and most importantly I am one of the ones who is actually affected by the proposal.
Hell, Chief Hoback lives in the County so what does he care about the response times in the City. Of course the County is far worse but we are catching up to where they are deficient.
If you only knew the whole story. It is not easy to explain in a way that everyone will understand.
By the way, feel free to come by Station 13. I work on C-shift. You are welcome to come by as anyone is. We will show your son the fire trucks and show him around the station much like my son and daughter enjoy sitting in the trucks and playing firefighter like they are going on calls.
We never mind doing that...seriously. We might also enjoy explaining some of the other vast issues we face.
After all, we are your firefighters, Roanoke's Bravest, the ones that anyone and everyone calls when they need help of most any sort. We have a long tradition of being able to be counted on and that will not change...you just have to wait a little longer now.
He puts desk jobs over our jobs for two simple reasons:
1. The only formal fire experience hehas is from the National Fire Academy where they teach management and paper pushing. He has never been a line firefighter, so he only knows how to fight fires on paper.
2. Burcham and Grigsby told him to.
You never had a boss that didn't know what he was doing and only made decisions based on what his boss told him?
What kills me is that the citizens (taxpayers) don't care where their money is going. How can you justify spending millions on ampitheaters, art museums, and downtown condos while at the same time cutting ESSENTIAL srvices? Police and firefighters are needed to protect the people who are expected to come to Roanoke to see all of these great things. $880,000 to a downtown developer for condos? That money could have funded these LOST positions for two years!! The city is INCREASING spending this year by 2.9 million, according to today's paper. Also, there is a reported 8 million increase in revenue. But they say the budget is tight and cuts must be made? We didn't ask for raises. We didn't ask for more than we already have. We simply fought to maintain what we HAD. We lost the battle, but the taxpayers lost the war. The problem is that this city is run on the whim of the rich south roanoke crowd and they want fancy buildings and landmarks to put their name on after they die. They could care less about what is going on in Northwest. Why do you think that Burcham wants to do away with reporting statistics by quadrants? She wants to hide the fact that the vast majority of fires and crime are in the poor areas of town. Do you see any stations shutting down in South Roanoke? NO! They are getting a new ambulance, while Northwest loses a second engine company.(Engine 12 was disbanded several years ago.) We stood up in defense of the citizens. I won't lose my job, my pay is stil the same, so I am only affected when I am on the fireground. I am not as safe as I was with more manpower. So, that means I won't take as much risk as I used to. What does that mean for the citizen? It means I have to work from outside your house while I wait on help. Which means that fire which could have been contained to your living room, is now going to involve your whole house. I have been hampered by politics, so YOU suffer, not me. We were trying to do what we do best when we spoke out against this and that is protect the people who pay us. The bottom line is we care. We fought, we lost. We hoped the citizens would step up behind us, but they didn't. We hoped city council would at least read our report, but they didn't. I hope no one ever needs our help, but if they do their chances were just reduced by their own elected officials. How many fires have ever been put out by an art museum?
I can’t believe you people (ie: City Council and the public in general) are so gullible. You all look and sound like educated people but are so blind or stupid that you can’t do simple math. 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4. That’s always been the case. What the Chief is telling you is that with the previous understood and agreed upon by all, that now 1 + 1 +1 = 4. Right??? Take one away but NOTHING will change?? IDIOTS! And as for listening to 1 vs. 91 (including a decorated Battalion Chief who did rise through the ranks and is out there in the streets every day) how reliable IS his word. Council woman Mason brought it up herself at the open forum. The CHIEF went to the civic leagues around station # 7 less than 1 year ago and promised PROMISED that if the “quint concept” was put into place at that station, it would be staffed with a minimum of 4 personnel. Now, these cuts include cutting Quint 7 to 3 men. Less than 1 year and the Chief ( the TOP man ) of an INTERNATIONALLY ACCREDITED Department lied to the people he is sworn to protect. What makes it worse is that Council KNOWS IT! Cut if you want… take 2, 3 more companies but don’t LIE to me. Tell me we have to make these cuts and service will suffer here, there or because of this or that. Don’t tell me that loosing men and cutting an engine will change nothing. Even a blind man would know that’s CRAP!
Uhmm.. Guys...
I have lived on the corner of Sixth & Day for 17 years. This is not quite South Roanoke.
Thanks for the information about The Fire-EMS Department. So every two years a new cycle of Council Members arrives and some of them are as ignorant as me (lacking in knowledge, uninformed, unaware) and they have votes concerning Fire-EMS...
Must be fun for you guys year after year watching a new batch of Council Members relying on the advice of a Department Head you so strongly disagree with. (that was sarcasm)
Can someone describe to me exactly how "attrition" in these positions works? (job existed/wasn't filled..?)
FireFleitz... This might be asking a lot but could you create a Google Map (like the one I did) but with staffing numbers/time slots & vehicles)? Something to use as a base so when someone like me needs to learn they can 'see' the information. Just a thought but in the future it might come in handy.
I obviously could use it now so I can try to grasp the big picture.
You Ask, “Since I am always eager to learn: Why would Mr. Hoback put desk jobs over the guys who save us?”
Because that is what he was told to do. The city manager and her Assistant do not tolerate dissent among the ranks.
Ask the former assistant city manager Chip Snead. After 20 some years on the job, he was told to seek employment else ware. He was guilty of trying to find a compromise solution when Burcham wanted to hold employee raises for six months to fund a semi-pro basketball team just a few budgets cycles ago.
It is no coincidence that the only department heads to speak out against the proposed budget were the ones elected by the public, not appointed to their position.
It is also the sad truth that most post you will recieve on this subject will be anonymous for the same reason.
The Chief is a likable guy, but he is a politician. Many of us remember when he ”sold out” the EMS department to further his ambitions. Please forgive our skepticism, if we don’t share your confidence that he will do the right thing!
The Chief is a likable guy, but he is a politician. Many of us remember when he ”sold out” the EMS department to further his ambitions. Please forgive our skepticism, if we don’t share your confidence that he will do the right thing!
Monday we try again. We will not have the opportunity to speak, for even three minutes. But since no one is listening I guess that doesn’t matter. All we can really do is represent our cause, and hope to make an impression on the public. At least then when something bad does happen the people responsible can be held accountable. A small consolation when you are dealing in human lives.
Can someone describe to me exactly how "attrition" in these positions works? (job existed/wasn't filled..?)
There are 3 shifts that staff the apparatus in the City of Roanoke. Daily we have people off work for training, illness, vacation, etc. Most of the fire apparatus have 4 people assigned to them, 3 must be present to keep the truck “in service”. So we have a daily minimum staffing level that must be met with either regular or overtime employees. Over the course of any given year we lose people to retirement, job changes etc. This creates vacant positions that are carried until we have a recruit school, usually about once a year. Then ther is a “mass hiring” of recruits who will go through about 16 weeks of training before being assigned to a shift. The six positions cut through attrition just wont be filled when the
let me give you an old saying to answer your question as to why you shouldn't listen to the chief.
"all of us are smarter than one of us"
think about it
PANDORA’S BOX
I my few years, I have always been trained to pre-plan and prepare for the worst and hope for the best. The direction we are being led seems to be that we are planning for the best and hoping that the worst never happens. It is very evident that now 8 years post 911; our country, our state, our city, and yes even our own fire department has forgotten the events of that day and the lessons we were all supposed to learn form the mistakes of the past. As citizens and front line defenders of this great country, we were promised that our country would never again look into the eyes of disaster of that magnitude without being prepared. Well, with less training/time to train, a reduction in available resources, and a pure lack of commitment to the public safety and security of our small piece of this country, it is no longer a matter of if we will be doomed to repeat the past but when will it happen and the answer is sooner rather than later. If we do not capitalize on the opportunity to forge ahead in the face of seemingly impossible odds, we will be reduced to a city where the fire department is a skeleton crew with minimum staffing below even today’s numbers, where the police department has to hide or face suicide missions in order to just survive the exponential growth of violent crime, and our sheriffs department will be over run by the very criminals we entrusted them to protect us from. It is absolutely unconscionable for any municipal government to choose projects that reflect curb appeal in exchange for the safety and security of its own. If we are to grow as a city and bring new opportunities into our region, you must first show that you are dedicated and committed and actually care about the safety and security of the citizens you serve. If not, our region will bring in new opportunities for growth, in the form of the destruction of the very fabric that our city was forged from. It is incumbent upon the leadership of this government to take a stand and make a choice. Do we just stand here and wait for the next 911 or maybe it’s just the simple death of a police officer or maybe that first in crew from E13 that needed the help of a brother to show them the way out of a burning inferno. Or do we actually decide to roll up our sleeves, dig down deep and choose to make a difference in the lives of the people who really do care…our citizens and fellow employees!!!
To this I give you these FACTS:
· New flat screen monitors in every office of admin- 300.00 each x 9 = 2700.00
· New 52” Plasma Screen in admin- 2000.00
· Charity Golf tournament @ Ashley Plantation- 2 teams at 5000.00/team = 10000.00
· 10 people sent to Atlanta for FRI- avg. 700.00/person = 7,000.00
· Lunch out every day M-F- 3.50/gal -avg. of 5 mi round trip or 25 mi/ wk = 364.00/yr
· Driving Home every day- max distance is 20mi 1 way x 2 =40 mi x 5 = 200mi/ wk x 7 take home vehicles- you do the math- avg. mpg is 15. Avg of 45.00/wk/vehicle x 7 = 315.00/wk x 52 = 16,380.00/yr.
· Cell Phones – paid by city = 9 in admin 35.00/mo = 315.00/mo x 12 = 3780.00/yr
· PDA’s for every admin position- 250.00 ea x 9 = 2250.00
· There is no way to estimate the THOUSANDS of dollars wasted on equipment purchased this year alone ( i.e. zero torque nozzles, foam nozzles etc) that was never used, returned for credit or even attempted to be traded for what we had to repurchase. One might ask why- well- the reason might be that the person in charge of purchasing had or still has a secret deal going with the supplier. I know its hard to believe- but consider a few facts:
Ø How is it that we are buying BDU’s from a company that didn’t sell them before we were buying? And did you know that the pants we are buying are seconds- irregulars. That is the only way we could buy them from CW Williams- they are not PROPER brand distributors. Also, our Carhart coats- CW Williams – guess what- not distributors- that’s why there was a delay in getting them- CW Williams had to find them first. How about 2 dishwashers being bought but only 1 delivered to a station and the other is unaccounted for. How about all that paint for the hydrants- amazing we bout so much but ran out so fast- wonder where it went? Why is it that when we get an order for items only part goes out and the rest stays in the personal stash? We had a delivery of 2 boxes of BDU’s- oops they were black- they sat unattended for weeks- not returned- wonder where they are and who got the money? Why is it we are having to get 14.00/pair irregular BDU’s repaired when they are new and a button comes off or a seam separates instead of returning them for another pair? Well- its because we are buying from an unauthorized dealer and someone is getting kickbacks in return. Our little connection moved on from CW Williams to AKRON- hence the Zero torque nozzle and the worthless fog nozzles. Why did we not return them and get credit towards the other nozzles we had to buy. The Zero torque nozzles were 13,000.00 We bought them 2-3 at a time so that the bid process could be avoided and direct credit card purchases could be made( Alfred Dowe has nothing on this one!!!)- there is a limit on purchases by amount before the bid procedure has to be followed. This is a common practice when trying to funnel money to a particular supplier who rewards their best customers with gifts, dummy accounts for laundering money back to yourself, and freebies like race tickets and many other untold fringe benefits.
Yes we all need to do our part to try to reduce operating expenses and yes we could get our groceries while off duty. But stop to think how much more willing would we all be if everyone was playing by the same rules starting at the top. If we want to start saving, let’s start at the top- show some initiative and implement some measures from the admin side. When will we have a Chief who will stand beside or in front of the men and women of this department and let it be known that we are important, they do care, and what we think actually matters? I’m afraid our “Chief” has shown his true colors or to be more accurate color- YELLOW . I can’t express how fed up I am with the lack of leadership in this City. It will truly be a sad day WHEN not if one of us will pay the ultimate sacrifice. And when this horrible day comes, I truly believe that our leadership will wear this death as a badge of courage and flaunt it proudly to the public as to say “How proud we are of the uncommon valor and bravery shown in the face of such danger- what a terrible tragedy”. May God have mercy on all their souls when this happens- and I will be there to point my finger at each and every one of them to remind them of these decisions and any future decisions that continue to degrade our service. Unless it is me who is the unfortunate one- then they will have to face my family and answer for their actions.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL and don’t ever forget- EVERYBODY GOES HOME NO MATTER THE COST!!!!!
Muse,
Thanks for all your support(that too is sarcasm). Lucky for you it wont be the Chief or one of the bean counters who reponds to you and your family in their time of need. We appreciate all your suppoet(more sarcasm).
City Council has made it offical. You might want to gloat a little more. Meanwhile those of us putting ourselves in harms way know that soon the doing job here in Roanoke will be more difficult and more dangerous.
I guess you are done with this topic? It's not so easy for me to move on, but I have more at stake here.
Just released, the Charleston SC Fire Chief just retired. Maybe Hoback can move down there and fix their department.
http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=56&id=59478
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